Topic started by Bharath (@ 184.108.40.206) on Thu Aug 23 17:21:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
I have seen the following comments a lot of times in this DF.
"the instruments used are western" .... "This song is like "western music" " etc..
I want to know, what is the definition of tamil sounding music and what are tamil instruments? I asked this question to a well know lyricist and he asked me to look up "silapathigaram" for the answer. I dont think he was trying to answer my question.
Among the instruments that have been used in the last 4 decades by tfm MD's I think a majority of instruments were western.
So what is the subtelity that classifies music as "western" and "Indian"? Is it the instruments being used or the carnautic/tamil folk touch the song gets?
for e.g I wud say guitar, violin, flute, drums etc as western instruments and tabala as Indian (although i dunno if its tamilian) ------ to shatter some myths about the western/indian definitions.
so as an educative purpose it would be nice if people gave an account of how much tamilian has tfm been for the past 3-4 decades. and shed some light on what attribute classifies a musical score as tamilian/western.
I am more interested in tamilain than Indian.
- Old responses
- From: ):( (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Thu Sep 6 11:30:14 EDT 2001
guys, can you take this discussion to forum hub.
fyi : this tamil film music page. some one needs to get a life :(
- From: kiru (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Sep 6 11:31:38 EDT 2001
ravi..lets not get very specific. In the West, getting married/divorce/remarried again..quite a few times is very common..this is what is reflected in the lyrics. My understanding is - this is not very Indian.
Eden, you are right about WCM part.There are other music genres as well from which we can borrow many things. And I think even IR has done that. I also agree West is getting more and more agnostic.
Re: Suresh's point that there are so many ills in our society. Yes, we have so many issues to be resolved. But KS's point is - to do good music one should be religious (not everybody should be religious). Agreed this is very controversial. I myself am not sure whether I believe in god or not. Still I completely believe in doing things which are considered right by any religion. So if at all I did music, will it be good ? Deva lways sports a kunkumap pottu. Doesn't he plagiarise. I see so many religious people who are totally corrupt/bribe takers. It all depends on what drives you to do your music. The inspiration/reason is very important.
(Suresh, I am not sure you have read my earlier posts. I dont think our culture considers sex to be totally taboo. We just have some restraints. IR one said, 'nAnum ungalaip pOl thAn, enakkum pAlunarvugal undu')
Bharath has some pre-conceived ideas about homosexuality, I think. Personally, I have worked with gay people who are extremely talented (they were VPs, product managers etc..hey I live around San Francisco). I dont think these people 'indulge' in it. I completely believe it is their natural inclination. Homesexual behavior has been observed even among animals. Are these animals morally depraved ?? If one does not believe all these one should withhold one's judgement till more research/findings are done in this area.
- From: NCR (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Thu Sep 6 11:54:01 EDT 2001
Most of the carnatic krithis were not thought and written. They just came out of people's minds automatically. For those who knows the life of muthusamy deekshitar, the songs just came out automatically whenever he saw a idol in the temple. That was the base of our music. The music has lot of meaning in it. When Thiagarajar says nidhi chaala sukhama, raamuni sannidhi chaala sukama, (which gives comfort is it money or Lord Rama )its a simple question for many as well as complex question. When Annamayya saw tirumala he sang, adivo alladivo sree hari paadamu ( there is Lord Sri hari's feet ). When Ramadas a devotee of Lord Rama was imprisoned for misusing govt funds for making ornaments for Lord Rama's idols, he sings and praises the Lord and also sometimes even curses him.
Thats how our music developed. The same happened with North, kabeer, Meera, Tulasidas were all the saints who had various lifes and forms of music. You can see only these are adopted by many and not any other forms of music. Only these are preserved and remained.
There were instances were few kings used these saints to praise and sing them and when they refused to do so they had to face tough time. Few did so. But none of them stayed with the time. Only those which are in praise of Lord has remained with time.
Thats the main difference between Indian Music and western music. You dont find that many people who sang in praise for Jesus. Who dedicated their life in praising lord. US is called bhoga bhoomi. Where people give more importance of enjoying. They do it as they like it what ever may be. The bottom line is enjoyment.
As KS said you dont find any meaning in rap songs. Just some kind of words and music. Why people attract more towards the foreign music is that it is simple, no mental stain in understanding the lyrics, feet tapping, even without getting involved you can enjoy,
Where as carnatic, the more you get involved, you enjoy, for which people dont get time. We have different ragas for different mood. To compose we need to know that. Where as other form you dont have that many forms. There is some greatness to each raga too. Singers made lights to lit, rain to fall by singing, Ganapathi sachidananda swamy is known to heal health problems with music played on synthesiser. Thats the power of our music.
First when I was learning carnatic, I never initially felt carnatic krithi's interesting, what are this alapana's why do we repeat the same word again and again etc., etc., But when I got the capacity to understand the lyrics, I found the real power of the music and the comfort it gives.
But basic thing is the every form of music has its own nature. Which one we adapt and why do we adapt that , if we do that knowingly, then thats fine but just following aliens culture leaving our own is really bad. If one doesnt have any can adapt one, but leaving one which has been there for centuries to one which developed not even few hundred years is bad.
Film music is just for entertainment. But many people has used this as a media to convey their feelings like KViswanath etc., Since this is a field where you have lot of situations and lot of people to satisfy, we tend to have various forms of our music adapted to the situation in the film, which is a temporary thing.
- From: Bharath (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Thu Sep 6 11:59:54 EDT 2001
okay! I'll stop the digression!
srikanth, i wanted to ask this for quite a while and i kept forgetting!
can i infer that now, tfm has become polyphonic.
also the doubt is...
is violin compatible with polyphonic sound! that you had mentioned.
in general which came second. carnautic music because of exixtence of monophonic intruments at that time or violins which logically was the choice because it was one the few available polyphonic intruments!
- From: srikanth (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Thu Sep 6 12:02:13 EDT 2001
NCR thanks for getting the subject back.
Yes you are correct on Carantic music , it was created to for god.
Thats the main difference between Indian Music and western music. You dont find that many people who sang in praise for Jesus. Who dedicated their life in praising lord. US is called bhoga bhoomi.
NCR I disagree.
first Western classical was not created in the US. It came from europe.Composers including mozart and bach were composing for churuch!....also I have read hindustani music was created to please the kings, later others might have used it to praise god.
Guys please! dont over turn this topic to other subject .
- From: srikanth (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Thu Sep 6 12:05:31 EDT 2001
bharath, most western instruments are polyphonic.
yes violin does supporty polyphony
try to hear (and see:) dixie chicks, they have some good solo violin scores which has polyphony.
(though i would say violin is limted in pfony than guitar)
polyphonic instrument can be monophonic.
but not the other way.
- From: NCR (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Thu Sep 6 12:08:47 EDT 2001
Srikanth, I mean the pop and rap etc styles not pure western music which was from europe. Sorry for using a generalised term as western music
- From: polappu (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Sep 6 12:15:58 EDT 2001
"Why must you always deride 'alien' culture, when there are so many things - equality, women's rights, work ethic, etc. - that can one learn positively from it? Hasn't the very same culture you mock given you the equal opportunity that many are denied in India? If you have a problem with the nightclubbing or dating in the west, so would a westerner find forced marriages, female infanticide, and casteism obnoxious in a professedly mature cultural landscape."
-- well said.
We have to embrace the good stuff in the western culture and keep evolving into a better and better society (they can take a lot from us too).
when it comes to TFM:
There is so much good in western music, not just WCM, classic rock is awesome too... when IR can use WCM effectively and make it sound 'indian', why not indianise rock too? maybe it would be ARR who would do that, but when its done by killing tamil then we loose lot more than we gain...
Personally, I wish IR/ARR get influenced by classic rock (Pink Floyd, Led Zep etc,..) and give some awesome psychedelic numbers in future.
- From: srikanth (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Thu Sep 6 12:18:01 EDT 2001
NCR ok, still we need to understand Western classical music was also created for God, later changed a lot.
I just pasted my old postings, this was posted just before the topic changed.
Indian music is monophonic. Structure of south Indian music is that we are melody oriented. Our music is not polyphonic, meaning our classical music plays one note at a time, and the accompaniment follows the singer. They donít counter each other.
Violin matched this quality. Violin has legato (meaning when you change from note to another the change should be smooth), piano does not have this quality to suite Carnatic. It goes with pianos (and harmonium).
Also some say violin is very close to human voice. It has better control than guitar or piano to handle hardcore Carnatic.
These are some of the reason we got into this.
Also in the heading Bharath has listed out Flute to be a foreign instrument,
I donít think so, as mentioned ďLord Krishna plays fluteĒ
Now Why guitar is more popular, these days,
I have read guitar came from near East (Babylonia, If I remember it correct)
In Egypt and Rome they had instruments close to guitar, might the predecessor of the guitar. Some say Italy was capital of guitar in 16th-17th century. But there are books to prove similar instruments were there in 3rd century BC.
The reason we did not adapt this in our classical music is once again polyphony,
Then there was no proper guru to teach this, in later days light music used it more. Hence Carnatic genre avoided it. Sukumar prasad and Guitar Prasana were first few I know who broke the wall and proved instrument has not got nothing to do with the music form.
Why mandolin was not used, this must have come from lute or during medieval-Renaissance mandola in 14-15th century, this is also a polyphonic instrument, however We all know Srinivas plays it so well., same goes to Sax, kadri Gopal nath...some still argues to me that tonal quality of sax does not suite carnatic. I donít agree to this. Nadam is excellent is any instrument. That is the reason we call them as music instrument.
Most of the so-called western instruments tend to support any form of music if we know how to play them properly. Some say it is wrong to say we cannot play one form of music using instruments from different form of music. I agree to an extent, as we cannot play a grinding hard rock using a Veena. It will not suite the music,.
Our instruments are unique and are tuned or have been created to our form music, while western instruments are often open to any form of music. This is the reason we see more western instruments around our music these days.
Any other counter opinionS ?
- From: Bharath (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Thu Sep 6 12:22:38 EDT 2001
//". Personally, I have worked with gay people who are extremely talented (they were VPs, product managers etc..hey I live around San Francisco). I dont think these people 'indulge' in it. I completely believe it is their natural inclination"//
okay last of the digression men! :-)
actually i started forming opinion because of first hand experience. why normal intelligent people who live and eat just like u and me are inclined to this way of life.
the more i look at people and try and form judgement. i think american society is harsh on youngsters they need to get a social life and also they are introed to gay'ism etc at a very yound age in the name of equal oportunity. once they fail in getting dates at a early stage (which is very normal) they begin to evaluate as to what purpose their make-up is intended for and once u start considering two options in the same pedestal it tends to become .5 probability
my question was whether if like most indian kids they totally were unware of such a concept then wud they do all this? wud they feel they were missing something?
to take from s.froid, the fundametal purpose of human species stripped ofa all superficial facts is to reproduce (this is also why he relates everything to sex).
with this in mind what benefit does this give us.
remember! I am talking moral issues here dont confuse mine with KS.
arent we handling with a entirely innocent virgin culture in india. does introducing this vastly controversial psycology do us any benifit . deepa mehta will make money and go away! but did she ever think that she is propelling an unwanted change to this culture!
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