Topic started by raycas (@ 126.96.36.199) on Sat Nov 10 18:50:14 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
u know, living in europe one comes in touch to a large variety of music...all that western stuff, from america till europe, everything...
the reason for this thread is the following:
when i sometimes listen to indian (tamil, malayalam, hindi etc.) music, i sometimes get this feeling as if it was so easy to compose songs like these...of course i see all those complex structures in ARR's and Ilayarajas compostitions (also in other mds), but still, when i then hear western stuff, all these loud things where don't know how many different sounds are played simultaneously to create a kind of weird effect, then, then all of a sudden i get this feeling that all that western stuff is much more complicated and 'great' than this 'easy' music composed in our india...
i would be thankful to u people if u could find solutions to this problem...i would like to hear how u people 'defend' indian music...tell me why indian music is much more complicated and well thought than i think...
- Old responses
- From: raycas (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Mon Nov 12 16:29:06 EST 2001
sorry sam, i haven't...
can u recommend me some? i don't know where to start to search...
- From: Sam (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Mon Nov 12 16:51:38 EST 2001
Raycas, try sum of these:
that might help a little
- From: musicanalyst (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Mon Nov 12 17:24:44 EST 2001
western music as epitmosied in the 50s, 60s and 70s is all about Restraint, Elegance, Style, and the Mood. It is an ocean by itself. Indian music in its two prime forms classical and popular film is about melody and intricacy. Intricacy is the other end of the spectrum of Elegance. U see the differenc? Indian music gives room for creativity and interpretation. Western music does not and is very very very restrained, disciplined in its objectives and very direct in its approach be it in melody or ryhthm department. Harmony is just a by product of the approach to music. Harmony is intrinsic to the restraints in westerm music. That is what i like about western music. The restraint and harmony. For me Indian music is all about unbounded creativism (look at our film music), human touch in the melody (microtones bring that out), the rusticism versus the suave western sounds, and of course the abundance of music material that classical traditions provide for indian film music. Perhaps only Ilayaraja has properly understood the color of the two systems and was successful in bringin out such fantastic creative works in films by blending two different approaches (north and south, i would say)to music.
Better way to appreciate the restraint, simplicity, balance and character of western music is to listen to instrumental music of Paul Mauriat, Tommy Garrettt and 50 guitars, melodies by Simon Garfunkel, Jim Reeves, works of dire straits, pop songs by boney m/abba, men at work and many more.
- From: Kupps (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Mon Nov 12 21:05:02 EST 2001
thanks avr, sam, raycas, KS.
sorry raycas, i did not listen to manmadha maasam more than once. but based on my memory, i think, yes, what you say is an another example of that "creativity" stuff. but beware, im not a classsically trained person. its better if somebody else confirm this.
great points musicanalyst.
- From: raycas (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Tue Nov 13 13:14:10 EST 2001
huh...so many words i didn't know...had to look a lot in the dictionary...but doesn't matter...
but why do u think western classical music is very restrained and does not leave room for creativity and interpretation? how do u come to this argument? can u give us an example of a WC song which is the way u mentioned? oh...wait, ok, i over read the examples u gave below...so i'll listen to them and tell u then what i think...
but, now at the moment, i don't agree with u that western classical music is restrain and simple as u said.
- From: hihi:-) (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Tue Nov 13 14:18:26 EST 2001
western classical music is restrain and simple. it is perfectly true wrt melody. with the discovery of (modern) harmonies, melody was given the back seat and hence the the greatest melodies of even people lize mozart are very simple. they are restrained because melodies have to be fit to "correct" or good progressions. even in a big body of music (like any symphony or sonata) only a small piece remains in the listeners mind (at least in my case); the reason, imo, is that is where real creativity lies. writing harmony and develpoment are all techniques one can master with hard work. in this sense, wcm sounds a bit trite to me now-a-days (save a few exceptions like beethovan and rachmaninoff). i think the jazz musicians (even tho' they work on rigid progressions), sound interesting because they always (at least try to) improvise. listen to count basie, rahsaan roland kirk (wow!), ... coming to icm, it's like jazz; one has to be have (or develop) a taste for it.
- From: kiru (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Wed Nov 14 15:30:24 EST 2001
now that we have hihi :-) he should be able to explain the various features of ICM - gamakam, niraval, kalpana swaras.
I will stick to high level characterisations. Indian music is concerned with a single melody line set to a tAlam and a harmonic backdrop/pitch provided by tampura. In contrast, WCM is more concerned with more than one instruments/voices playing concurrently (at the same time). Since many voices are playing at the same time they have to be in harmony. WCM has the capacity to sound 'grand' because of the big sound of many instruments. IMO.
Dont jump to the conclusion that ICM is very simple and lagging behind WCM. Since we are concentrating on a single melody, we are more concerned with how the notes are placed sequentially in the music. And now that we have a good idea of the sequential position of notes and their effects, we can now a develop a system of rAgam with seven swaras in a particular order (sa ri ga ma pa da ni)in ArOhanam and in the reverse order for avarOhanam. This taxonomy of scales gives us a good library to use for a particular 'look and feel' (like they say in software) of a composition.
(hihi:-) what I miss in WCM I think is gamakam. Even though I am not a classical music buff this taste for gamakam is in the indian blood :) I guess. Yesterday, I heard a piece on radio a harp concerto, absolutely fantastic. I will give you more details later).
- From: kiru (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Wed Nov 14 15:42:43 EST 2001
hihi :-) try to listen to George Christoph Wagenseil - Harp Concerto in G. Your comments on 'writing harmony and development can be mastered with hard work' is not necessarily true just for harmony and development. I think it applies to any aspect of music composing. So it should be equally valued like any other aspect of a composition (like the main melody). Listen to the harmony in the above example.
- From: hihi:-) (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Thu Nov 15 14:28:08 EST 2001
kiru: i will try to listen to this harp concerto. thanks for the info.
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