Topic started by paran (@ 18.104.22.168) on Tue Jul 15 03:36:08 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
I think we had seen enough of MD-bashing forums..
now....with respect let's talk about the strength of these legends of TFM....
- Old responses
- From: isainanban (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Thu Jul 24 23:55:12 EDT 2003
one more thing to add for Jag: You cannot compare Michael Jackson with Bach (or Beethoven or Mozart). All are innovators and geniuses beyond the comparison thing. So, I say don't compare IR with MSV. It is possible to compare IR with Salilda or MSV with Dakshinamoorthy without putting one or the other down - because of being of the same styles or "leagues".
Yet, there a followers who try to bring change but they cannot be called geniuses (for eg.. even though Rahman does not belong to the MSV style or IR type composers, and has his own style, I don't consder Rahamn a genius just because most of his tunes and orchestration are not solid stuff.)
- From: Prabhu (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Fri Jul 25 00:19:36 EDT 2003
Speaker, calling MSV overrated is grossly unfair pa...public memory is very fickle and thats why you find the young crowd going after 90s/80s/max 70s music, but you will find hundreds of MSV gems in the 60s/50s when he constantly bettered and innovated himself. Just that 50s/60s were an era of little or no publicity, MSV suffers coz of that. 70s/80s more of it, you can say IR got adequate fame but of course it was all in proportion to his output. 90s - excessive publicity for mundane stuff(I'd say ARR hits the roof in this :))
The question here is, who got the rawer deal, MSV or KVM?
- From: G.Ragavan (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Fri Jul 25 02:04:42 EDT 2003
prabhu, I agree with u. v cant compare two artists of different periods. Most of the time I read biased and/or narrow ideas and views in these pages.
We can compare the performances of MSV and KVM. That will be a good and interesting. In my opinion both of them are well talented MDs in TFM.
Let us see what other people post about these two MDs.
- From: Whatever (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Fri Jul 25 05:33:31 EDT 2003
MSV is - or is it was - a great music director. No question. But to paint all his work with a broad positive brush is a bit much. While his melodies were brilliant, his interludes were, well ahem, not too good. It is not to take away anything from MSV's capabilities. But from a complete film music composer's point of view, his tunes were good. Period. No interludes, no BGM to speak of.
- From: Mythila (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Fri Jul 25 07:25:54 EDT 2003
This is not to put down MSV. Infact I love most of MSV's numbers during the period 1968 - 1978.
Esp, MSV's 'Avalukkendru oru manam'
'Thotta idam yellam'-Idhayakkani
will always be on my most fav list.
I remember director Sridhar's thodar articles in Kalki few years back ,where he has written about MSV's style of composing. Sridhar has casually stated (mind you , it looked like as if it were the norm, not as an accusation) that MSV used to play the records of various western music collection to Sridhar for selecting the tunes he liked the most . Sridhar was saying this with reference to movies like Sivandha mann, Venniraadai, Ooty varai uravu.
vijay, by cacophony, I meant the interludes seemed a bit cluttered , yet sweet in those songs
- From: Music4ever (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Fri Jul 25 11:09:39 EDT 2003
First and foremost I want to specify my caveat which is that music is a matter of personal taste. Next I want to make it clear that I am not
against any particular MD, although my all-time favorite is MSV (and TKR), with KVM and other pre-seventies MD's not that far behind in the
"pecking" order. Indeed, time was when I was almost fanatically obsessed with the music of MSV. But since then times and indeed perspectives have changed and now I accept there is as much merit, if not more, in the tunes of other competing MD's of that era. In particular, I have enjoyed the much-underrated KVM's tunes very much. He is also a legend of TFM, IMO.
But let me concentrate on MSV in this post.
MSV's music is precious to those who value his brand of melody without the (needless) distraction of (listlessly) meandering interludes that do not have much relevance to the main theme of the song. Barring a few exceptions, the strength of most of MSV's songs, apart from basic wonderful melody, are interludes that are usually *pertinent* to the flow. That is, they don't seem to distract the flow of the song, IMO. Take "RaagangaL padhinaaru" for example. Check out the simple yet captivating interludes that add juice to the song in their own simplistic
way. Specifically, the interlude before "Idai-aada .. salaingagaL aada, idai-yodu kodi pola asaindhaadinaaL .." is very pertinent to the flow of that particular song. No fancy music, just plain simple basic instrumentals that add
much flavor and power to the entire song. Indeed, MSV is one MD who made a virtue out of employing basic simplicity in tunes. In my own research area, I have found that simple proposals often offer the best solutions, although I admit I am being somewhat nebulous in my statement.
I agree with the observations of K, Isainanban, RR, Vijay, and Prabhu, although I would not compare MSV with IR. Both are legends in their own way, with a relatively greater number of music lovers finding IR's gems precious;
more power to them.
There are some tunes that appeal to you instantly. When this happens often with a particular MD, you start becoming his fan -- I grew up listening to MSV's music during my teens, although MSV was fading away then and IR taking
over. I must admit that the same happened with ARR's music. I was relatively in the musical wilderness in the early to mid nineties, although I became aware of songs in Roja, Gentleman, Thiruda thiruda etc in a general sense. The song Ooh la la la captivated me instantly. I did not know then that ARR composed it (musical wilderness thing that I referred above!). In particular, the transition to " ... maattu vandiyilE poraLe ponnu oruththi .." part
impressed me a lot. I remember telling then that this song was going to be a hit and wondered who composed it. The song telephone mani pol also did the same to me. I then started looking forward to more songs from ARR. Now I am one of his unabashed admirers although I readily admit he is not of IR's caliber.
So, this "MSV is overrated" got me to probably provide an irrational earlier response. Sorry about that. Enough rambling for the moment.
- From: isainanban (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Fri Jul 25 14:15:36 EDT 2003
Music4ever: I think there is some connection between us (regards Ooh Lala, KVM, about your angle on MSV!!!, weird this thought process.)
Prabhu, aboslutely the point. Speaker calling MSV overrated is gross and unfair. In fact, ever since IR wreaked havoc, MSV was just plain ignored, i still remember many of my friends just in their early teens talking to themselves as if they lost a war, who was better MSV or IR.... mind you, kids like me in their ealy teens, that was the impact MSV was having then, however, MGR, Sivaji always stole the limelight on screen. Where is MGR without MSV or KVM (all Nalla Naal songs overwhelms me with such joy) Sivaji could get stay with sheer acting prowess, but I think MGR' charisma got that dimension from the composers generosity!!!! (or,let us say his heightened sense of Indian musical traditions helped him conquer the hearts of the masses)
Music is definitely imho, the ultimate means to touch the heart and reach God. MSV has touched souls of musically enlightened people of south India to a divine extent! Also, Vijayalakshmi a Telugu singer has mentioned about MSV, IR & KVM indicates that to really see the geniuses in the proper light u need to have some enlightenement - sit under the aala maram and meditate on the songs!!!!! Studying these geniuses approach is itself will take you a lifetime of work, to get into their minds thus revealing their personalities, you can even learn about what values they cherish by understanind the musical thought process. MSV and IR to me are charismatic geniuses of the highest order without being intellectuals - subtle, sublime, graceful, mature, supermen, above all divine.
(If you look for intellectuals, usually they are authors - George Orwell, Rushdie, Nirad Chaudhuri, Karl Marx, Freud, Mao, Kurzweil etc.. most pseudo guys trying to change the view of the world radically (as i see it, intellectuals are really insecure ahols, paranoid and tryin to appear smart.) not gracefully and patiently(composers and humorists.) But, this is another bs pseudo intellectual crap for another thread ;---)))
- From: Jag (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Fri Jul 25 22:43:35 EDT 2003
I agree to most of all what you guys, especially
k's point of MSV giving some direction to film music through classical influences. It has definitely made TFM the most advanced and superior music even when hindi music was at it's peak in 60's, 70's. IR made exponential progress from then on and is not showing any hint of stopping. I wonder if we can ever accurately analyse his contributions to TFM.
Another point there is no way we can compare MSV and IR. If IR had done whatever MSV had done in classical music and just added better interludes he would have been branded as just another talented MD. It did not happen so no point pursuing comparisons.
IR had plenty of great albums especially between early 90's and mid- 90's. I am surprised that you had been found wanting in a musical wilderness.
But anyway it's a matter of personal perception I believe. I enjoyed reading all your comments and was weighing my perceptions against them.
Thanks for the comments. Finally there is something happening in the forum after all these days of relative meandering in here, I am getting to know stuff from people old and young , understanding what music means from one person to another.
I am thinking if IR had read our posts he, would have given a much stronger reply to some queries here :)
- From: Music4ever (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Sat Jul 26 09:49:27 EDT 2003
Isainanban: Nice points :) I can very well relate to the MSV vs IR debate, since that was a very significant daily event in our household, with me siding MSV and my brother IR! However, although I still retain my love for MSV songs (that will never change!), I have learned to appreciate the genius of IR over time. It would be silly not to acknowledge this colossus's contribution to TFM since 1976.
Jag, your observations are interesting too. I understand how you feel about IR and I guess you are mostly on the dot.
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