Topic started by Udit naryan, harihara & Kumar sanu (@ 184.108.40.206) on Fri Jan 10 12:56:43 EST 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
I know it is a touch one, it is very close between Rafi & SPB, my opinion is as follows
how about yours??
- Old responses
- From: avr (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Thu Jan 16 10:01:54 EST 2003
"Managed to come out with a Classical music based movie in the last 30 years ,at last "Bhairavi" -the Ashiwini Bhave starrer"
Bhairavi wasnt the only one, OISG. There were many. And there have been Hindi films with classical-based music comparable to karnan.
Lastly, one request - stop generalizing all Northies to be of the level of Laaloo Yaadav. The same North that produced Mahatma Gandhi, Tagore, Hargobind Khuraana, Satyajit Ray and Lata Mangeshkar, also produced the Laaloos and their ilk.
On the other hand the South, which produced M s Subbalaxmi and Ilayaraja,C V Raaman and Adoor Gopaalkrishnan, also produced "ghouls" and banes like MGR, Jayalalithaa, KaruNanidhi, Veerappan, Narasimhaa Rao...... Dont forget the Tamil tigers creating havoc in Srilanka. While it is a given that guys like SAM are idiots, your going to the other extreme is in no way justifiable, especially because you are a veteran member of this forum.
- From: avr (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Jan 16 10:05:53 EST 2003
And regardless of the brickbats I get, let me lastly say that people here incessantly crib about North Indian singers singing in amil, though the greatest of Tamil MDs like their own Ilayaraaja, ARR, Vidyasaagar, Devaa...are preferring those singers. Crib as you want, but relaise that Northies have the right to crib about the third class Hindi accents of SPB, KJY, VJ, Hema Maalini, Kamal Hassan et al.
And you quote SPBs National award? Well did you forget Sadhana Sargam's national award for Azhagi? Guess what, VJs Neela wasnt even NOMINATED!
- From: Raghu (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Thu Jan 16 10:06:34 EST 2003
Good postings, man, u must have had the time to write such postings :)
>>You are passing a personal opinion as fact repeatedly. Are you trying to say that Lata sang only in Hindi? If so you are probably unaware that she was a phenomenon in Gujarati, Bengali and above all Marathi films as well. Even in languages like Kashmiri and Punjabi, Assamese and Rajasthani where her repertoire was miniscule, she is one of the most popular singers.
we are all aware that latha sang in majority of the aryans languages, did u know that P.suheela sang all major 4 dravidian languages like Tamil/Telugu/malayalam/karnataka, and P.susheela had the BEST voice amongs all female singers in India, NOt latha or asha, they both had squeaky voices, asha had a better voice than latha IMO.
- From: Raghu (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Thu Jan 16 10:09:43 EST 2003
>>Dont forget the Tamil tigers creating havoc in Srilanka<<
Oh yeah, who told u that it is the LTTE that is causing the havoc, it is SL army & goverment man, LTTE are just giving their lives for us SL tamils, any way that is another issue!
- From: Raghu (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Thu Jan 16 10:16:42 EST 2003
the biggets upset of last year is "Udit & Co" getting the national award best play back singer, man what a joke, heheheheheheh :)))
- From: Sam (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Thu Jan 16 11:00:08 EST 2003
Accept it guyz, south indian singers stink. u guyz jumped on me when i said dat before. Now try answering Ali and avr. LOLOL!
- From: Sam (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Thu Jan 16 11:54:36 EST 2003
btw avr stop callin me idiot. i'm lettin it go coz we r on the same side here. if u keep doin it i'll have to report u to admin coz it is personal attack. i dont do personal attacks. i only criticise singers and composers, allright.
- From: Lord LabakuDas (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Jan 16 12:00:23 EST 2003
U forgot your autosignature LOL LOL in the last posting..Usually I read the postings first looking who posted it..Nowadays i am doing reverse..First i will check any LOL is there at the last line..If it is there..then its surely Sam uncle thaan..:-)
- From: Sam (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Thu Jan 16 12:07:37 EST 2003
hi funny man, how r u. ur name always makes me laugh. LOL!
- From: Ali (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Thu Jan 16 22:39:44 EST 2003
First of all I never said that SI music lacks breath control. You must have read my
post wrongly. I said that breathing is the most important part of singing and that most
SI artists say it is beneficial to learn hindustani music since it improves breath control.
I also only said that SPB could not sing hindi songs with the required emotion because he
cannot express as well in hindi as he can in SI languages. The words in hindi/urdu require
more room for breath and managing to do that and being expressive at the same time is
a difficult thing to do. SPB could only manage that in SI languages because the words there
do not require alot of breathing room and you can be expressive without the words taking up breath space.
I have sung many times in tamil/telegu etc and the flow of words in these languages is easy with respect to breathing. Singing in hindi/urdu
takes up more breathing room and to be expressive at the same time is not easy. If Rafi was a master at controlling his breath for words which take up more breathing room and be expressive at the same time, how come SPB was not able to do this in hindi ?. I also maintain that if Rafi had been exposed to tamil/telegu as much as SPB is/was exposed to hindi, he would have done well. When malayalam composer Jitin Shyam asked Rafi to sing a malayalam song, Rafi said that he would not be able to impart the right emotion without understanding the meaning of the lyrics. So you see if Rafi had time to really have a good breakthrough into SI languages i'm sure the versatile genius would have done well. I mean he had already mastered breath control on one angle singing in hindi/urdu which requires more training if you want to express words properly so SI languages may have been well for him. This is an assumption based on his talent but then again we all have made assumptions in this discussion. This is strictly leaving things such as accent behind and just concentrating on expression.
I also know alot about SPB's SI songs as you seem not to think.I have compared their vast styles and their rendering of various songs in order to make judgements. It seems to me that you haven't heard much of Rafi's songs though you are putting both him and SPB on the same level. I don't disagree that SPB should be shunned out of comparison to Rafi/KJY etc. but if Rafi is considered a benchmark for many singers then you should go and hear those songs that make him a benchmark and then comment on various styles with respect to other singers.
Let me just answer the points that you mentioned :
Singing for Shammi is totally different from singing for KH. As you said SPB has sung these dance numbers for Kamal. Well yaar, I am not talking about normal dance numbers here. If you know abt SK, you will notice that his songs and the type of songs he brought to cinema were one of a kind. They pioneered in a whole new style of songs. His songs are incomparable to other kinds in the same genre because they are different. No singer on stage attempts to sing these songs because they cannot sing them. When SPB sang
"Aaja Aaja" on stage I felt that the dance songs which he had sung for Kamal suited him more. He cannot sing the type of SK songs and go wild
or really crazy and at the same time maintain that control. This also refers back to breath control in different languages as i mentioned earlier. Yes, SPB sang that song with control but not with the amount of intracies it requires.
I'm sorry but you saying Rafi's voice sounded like MK in the late 70's is a joke. There's no singer in India who had a voice that was
not too deep and not to nasal and just perfect other than Rafi. Comparing his voice to Mahendra Kapoor is like comparing warne to paul strang.
Rafi's voice never deteriorated and he kept on singing for the younger generation of stars. How can you say an album such as 'Laila Majnu' in 76 in which a singer such as SPB cannot even imagine to attempt has a deteriorated voice of Rafi. Either your ears are plugged or you are just putting comments for fun. If his voice had deteriorated, I don't think MD's would have used him more than KK in that 75-80 period. By the way, 'Laila Majnu' was picturised on Rishi kapoor and brought him popularity based on those songs. Rafi matched Rishi to the tip like no one else did, KK sounded erratic and heavy, Shailendra Singh sounded nasal, no one could do justice to his voice as Rafi did. But then again Rafi did justice to everyone's voice which was his
extraordinary quality. You don't see anyone saying SPB or KJY or anyone else matched the exact voice of an actor but you hear this time and time again about Rafi. You seem to be interpreting your own history instead of actual history when you say Rafi lost out to KK when Rishi Kapoor came onto the scene. Analyze : Laila Majnu, Badalte Rishte, Sargam,Do Premee,Karz,Naseeb,Amar Akbar Anthony,Hum Kisi Se Kum Nahin etc. all major RK hits and all Rafi-based scores. Same with your theory on Rajesh Khanna. You must have forgotten that Rafi was his first voice in Raaz and went on to bring him to fame in The Train,Baharon Ke Sapne,Shehzada,Haathi Mere Saathi,Mehboob Ki Mendhi,Aan Milo Sajna,Do Raaste,Doli,Choti Bahu etc. and people must have forgotten that he sang two hits for the phenomenon in Aradhna and you say he lost out to KK ?. Again your theory proved wrong. Lastly coming to AB, i don't think you know but Rafi was his first voice in Pyar Ki Kahani.
Analyze Adalat,Dostana,Mr.Natwarlal,Zanjeer,Ek Nazar,Abhimaan,Suhaag,Desh Premee etc.. Rafi sang the sweeter songs for AB as opposed to the loud abnoxious ones from KK. So if you think Rafi fell out to KK in terms of these actors, check your facts buddy !!. Rafi's voice never sounded strained at the end so please don't make up statements anymore. You seem to have been caught up in the KK media hype when you were
living in Bombay. Well, i can't blame you because the media did a good job of hyping KK only for it to go against them at the end. I mean Rafi was always in demand even in his later years
whereas SPB is not that much in demand as of now.
A vetran like Swamiji mentioned that 1 out of 10 will be able to sing the songs of Shankarbharanam with the same effect as SPB did. Ofcourse not all songs have the same effect as the original
but when comparing Rafi and SPB's songs, because of Rafi's talent, he brought MD's up a feat which many singers have not done. This is why I am saying that when comparing SPB and Rafi, if SPB's
tunes had been sung by another singer it wouldn't have created that less of an effect but with Rafi's tunes being sung by someone else it wouldn't have created the same impact because he made these songs unreachable and with a different effect as opposed to if it had been sung by someone else because of his range. That is why you here about how Rafi/Lata brought many MD's up because of their rendering and how their songs cannot be sung with the same effect and how they are out of reach. I never said that some tunes were too good that SPB would have made no difference as you claim. I said the effect of songs by Rafi/Lata is different to that of SPB which is why you hear all the time that Rafi/Lata bought many musicians up. So if these tunes were sung by others they would have been popular but not as popular as they are today.
Rafi is considered as a benchmark for many singers. SPB though having his own style, has also incorporated Rafi's singing style into himself as he himself has said many a times. Many have also tried to match his fluidity in all ranges but cannot seem to because this man had a range as wide as the Himalayas. No one dares to touch his high pitched songs because they cannot venture into those territories. They only sing his normal to low ranged songs because they are easier. As for his low pitched songs, there are many many examples where he has touched the low notes with ease. Go and hear the song Dekhi zamane ki yaari from Kagaz Ki Pool and you will see how his voice soars and sinks at the same time. That was the beauty of Rafi and Lata that composers did not have to be restricted with their compositional ranges. Sure any composer can create compositions with low range such as the songs SPB has sung in low notes as well as what Rafi/KK/KJY/Mukesh have all sung. But to go out of that and create compositions with high ranges, twists and turns and different levels not only challenge the composer but also require a singer who can make all that possible. That is why in many of Rafi's songs you will find different levels of range because his range was so vast that he was able to sing all these types. As St mentioned, IR can create sequences in which SPB will not be comfortable with because he doesn't have that much of a wide range. It's a fact that SPB does not venture out into high ranges where he is not comfortable with unless he has to. Well, the songs which Rafi and Lata sang were made to challenge their range that is one of the aspects why Rafi is considered a model for many singers.
True, SPB has shifted different levels in his songs but that is within the basic level of notes in which even a singer like Mukesh could do, and not notes which require you to fully go out of your normal range and into a much higher range. It's impossible to compare the range of Rafi and the range of SPB. Even IR created compositions keeping in mind SPB's range. You may say well SPB can sing low, well its not only because he has a bass that makes him good in lower notes its how he performs those lower notes which makes him good. Rafi could also sing in lower notes very efficiently. Go and hear the bhajan Man Tarpat hari darshan ko from Baiju Bawra to see Rafi in lower notes. NTR brought Rafi to sing his telegu because he felt he was the only singer who could do justice to a required pitch.
When singing, a normal singer can sing normal notes which are within the basic level, but to go out of that and challenge your voice you need to have a wide range. I can venture into low notes and middle notes because they suit the range of a normal singer, but to sing higher than that and generate more melody requires training. Your voice is challenged when you venture into the next level just like a composer is challenged when he creates compositions out of the normal range.
True singing low also challenges your voice but not as much as higher notes. If I was to continue singing low i could manage that more effectively in a normal range as opposed to singing higher notes. High notes require more practice than lower ranged notes. When a singer is just starting off, he first learns the basic notes in his normal range which is about low-mid as opposed to a high range because it is easier.
Melody comes when you go outside that normal level onto a next level and not when you are restricted to just low or middle notes which is why composers could create such meledious songs for Rafi/Lata outside normal notes and not be restricted in their compositional talent. Composers could now be creative and explore both high and low instead of being restricted to just middle or low. I mean imagine melody restricted to just low or middle notes.....the sur in the awaaz would ofcourse not come out. If a singer continues to sing in a low pitch, not that much melody is generated as opposed to when he steps it up a notch.
Though IR made compositons outside of just normal ones which were creative, if he had a singer like Rafi at helm, I'm sure he would have challenged his creative skills more in the range of his compositions because he had a singer that could do justice to it. Just think of it this way, if a group of violin orchestra plays within a middle to low range they are not being challenged, but when they play high, they start to add more thrust and their creative abilities come into play. They are not restricted to just basic notes.
That is why in a song when a orchestra plays low to middle one says it is normal but when they manage to step it up a notch, one says that emotions are now being shown.
- From: Jana (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Thu Jan 16 23:12:26 EST 2003
That was something ...wow too good!!!!
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