Topic started by Madhan (@ 22.214.171.124) on Fri Jun 12 11:21:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
Friends, as an ardent music lover, I have certain pending reservations regarding the usage of TECHNICAL TERMINOLOGY while discussing music. I have a sincere suggestion to make - there are various terms like "LAYA MEDHA VILAASAM"(once used by Subbudu, the music critic to describe ARR's music), "Shruti Bedham","Chords progressions)(favorite area of our Srikanth ), "Apaswaram" and many others very frequently used .
I request all music knowledgeable peole to contribute as much as possible to this thread giving the best, accessible, legible, understandable definitons for various terms like what I have mentioned above , giving apt examples from FM, it can be from Hindi, Tamil or, any language. Let us pursue music with an onus of educating ourselves.
I request Nithin, Udhaya, Srikanth, Srinath and others to jump into this fray and enlighten , the lesser knowledgeable people on the various aspects of TECHNICAL TERMINOLOGY in music.
- Old responses
- From: rajaG (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Tue Feb 2 15:15:48 EST 1999
Since the professor (Srikanth) is bysy right now, a GTA is offering some answers. Srikanth - thappirundhaal manniththu dhayavu seidhu correct seiyyavum.
Answer to Q 1. The octave (middle C, Low c, or High C)does'nt matter for referring to the scale of a song. However, in archaic Carnatic usage when the male voice sings in C it would be referred as 1 katta, but an exceptional female voice which would present in C, would be referred to as 8 katta kural (even though both are the same)
Q2. In the raga structue, Sa is absolute and re, ga, etc.. are relative to the Sa. One can select any sruthi to be the Sa. There are 12 sruthis viz. C, C#, D, D#(also called E flat), E, F, F#,G, G#, A, A#(also called B flat)and B. Let us first make the selection of a raga say, Hamsanandhi. The carnatic swaras for the raga is Sa, ri, Ga, Ma (Prati), Dha, Ni, Sa.
IF you select to sing this raga in the C scale (sruthi) then you would sing/play the notes C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C (and C#, E....). Let's assume that you find that this scale is too low for you (your chin is rubbing against the bottom of your neck) and you need to increase the scale by two notches, say to D. Then for playing the same raga you would sing/play the notes D, D#, F#, G#, B, C#, D.
There is a Dheekshathar Krithi 'Paawana Guru Parama... in Hamsanandhi. Raaththiriyil Pooththirukkum (Thanga Magan), Puththam Pudhu Poo PooththadhO (Dhalapathi), Raaga Dheepam Etrum nEram...(PayanangaL Mudivadhillai) are TFM examples for Hamsanandhi.
- From: muthax (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Tue Feb 2 17:24:03 EST 1999
Thanks a ton. Exactly the structure in which i wanted the reply. But ithu melum sila kelvigalai thoondi viturikirathu.
first thing after i reach home en kelvi kanaigalai veesugiren. :))))
- From: muthax (@ user-38ld97f.dialup.mindspring.com)
on: Tue Feb 2 18:56:59 EST 1999
Yes i worked on my keyboard and played Hamsanandhi raga in the scale of C and D. I also increased by 3 and played with this note pattern
D# E G A C D D# - is this in the scale of E of D#?
We call it D-Sharp in western how does this refered in the carnatic?
Well coming back to the TFM and Raga Hamsanandhi,
the songs you have refered have to be played only in the pattern we have formed(whether it is C Scale or D Scale or whatsoever)?. So say, i want to play rathiriyil poothirukkum in my keyboard in the scale of C, then i have to use
C C# E F# A B C only and nothing else?
Does this mean the whole song has only these notes? And if i keep trying this raga i can work out on the song?
Ipothaikku ithu pothum. :)))
- From: Madhan, Goa (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Wed Feb 3 00:09:18 EST 1999
This is a minor digression:
Hello Mr.Muthax, are you the same Muthax that I and many others back in Chennai know of as Muttukkumar, passed out from JV, Ashok Nagar, Chennai in the year 1990?
- From: rajaG (@ pool048-dwan1x2.800.dialup.earthlink.net)
on: Wed Feb 3 01:14:06 EST 1999
Answer to your questions are as follows:
1.Your scale for the D#, E, G....series for hamsanandhi is D# and not E.
2. In the carnatic classical scale D# will be referred to as 2.5 (rendara katta). Incidentally, in north India the same scale is referred as 'kaali dhO' i.e black two (you can see that C# is kaali Ek or 1.5.
3. If you want to play raathiriyil pooththirukkum on the keyboards you can play the entire song using the keys referred. However, sice film music is light the MDs take the liberty of travelling outside the raga occasionally for changing the mood of the presentation (or just for the heck of it). Similarly IR, in the third line of the charanams (starting with vaanulagEy...(1) and vaazhaiyilai...(2)) has gone outside the raga and touched the regular ma instead of the prathi Ma. So you have to play the F note in those lines eventhough it is "outside the raga".
- From: muthax (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Wed Feb 3 10:40:31 EST 1999
Another minor digression
Madhana enn rajavae vaa........
Che idhu namma cinema la varra Maanga matcham mathiri irukuthu.
Aiyo yaravathu situation ku etha mathiri oru paatu podungalaen. Thiruvizhala tholanju pona iru nanbargal sernthuvitaargal. :)))))
"un mandhaiyil irundhu iru aadugal pirindhu sendrana, avai meendum santhitha pozhuthu pesamudiavillaiye......."
- From: muthax (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Feb 4 15:26:11 EST 1999
Coming back to Hamsanandhi's scale
C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C
Does this mean that the songs based on this raga(not TFM - sorry ravi for the digression) must have all the above notes(i read ur posting on the slight change in the notes in rathiriyil song). Why iam asking this is
incase the answer to my question is no, then i have one more question :)))
1. lets say a song X(based purely on the this raga) does not have note A in it.
That makes the song to play only in
C, C#, E, F#, B, C notes. Then there is a possibility of another Raga(say Raga Y) having this note. Then will u call the song X is in Raga Y or in Hamsanandhi with A suppressed.
- From: rajaG (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Tue Feb 9 16:03:37 EST 1999
Sorry that I missed your post last week. For example, if in Hamsanandhi C# (ri) is not used, then it becomes Sunaadha VinOdhini (I think!). In such a case if a song is composed with with only the remaining notes of Hamsanandhi, it will be termed as a composition in Sunaadha VinOdhini rather than calling it Hamsanandhi with C# (ri) suppressed. Hope this clarifies your query.
- From: rakes (@ )
on: Fri Jan 16 10:27:53 EST 2004
i want to know how to find adharasruti of a song
- From: rgovindarajan (@ )
on: Tue Feb 10 09:48:09 EST 2004
in a tamil film song,pattuoda ragatha appadi kandu pidikaradhu
- From: Kupps (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Tue Feb 10 12:21:13 EST 2004
rajaG, Srik and other pundits,
If one has to create a tune out of a raga how does one has to go about it?
Lets take our muthax scale for Hamsanandhi:
(C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C). Let us call this scale as "set". If I have to bring out a tune, should i have to play this set in the same order repeatedly i.e. can i merely repeat the set (C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C) again and again and say that to be a tune in hamsanandhi scale?
If all i have to do is repeat my set again and again without any change to order within the set then how come i feel there is a sea of difference (in tune alone, ie. the singer's portion of raathiriyil poothirukkum) with Paawana guru of dikshitar (that is played in mella thirandhadhu kadhavu)?
Or can I make a random deletion of swaraas from the set and form a pattern as (C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C) (C, C#, E, F#, A, C) (C, C#, E, F#) (C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C) (C#, E, F#, A, B, C) like this and still say that it is in hamsanandhi?
Or, can i still say that my tune that follows the rule "all I have to make sure that the swaraas in the set (C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C) appear in my pattern but need not be in the order (within the set)" i.e. a pattern like (C#, C, F#, A, E, B, C) (C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C) (C, C#, E, F#, C, B, A) (C, C#, F#, A, B, C, E) can still be called a tune in hamsaanandhi?
Or can i form a pattern like joining the first few or last few swaraas from the "i"th set to "j"th set and still call it a tune in hamsaanandhi?
eg the pattern is: (C, C#, E, F#) (A, B, C, C#, E, F#, A, B, C, C#, E) (F#, A, B, C)
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