Why TFM alone??? Ilayaraja is probably the best music director that India has EVER produced. What say all of you??
Topic started by Karthik (@ cnl-4.cnel.ufl.edu) on Fri Aug 8 12:14:55 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.
- Old responses
- From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net)
on: Sun Jun 14 21:08:11 EDT 1998
Harmony is totally alien in ARR's music. Being a musician yourself, you should know better. Just using some choral sounds does not make a harmony. You are also implying that IR is not effective in using harmony. I think then you get the meaning of Harmony wrong. The only music director other than S D Burman, SalilDa, RJ who has made brilliant harmonic compositions is IR and IR tops them all with many more layers of instrumentation than anyone I have heard in Indian film music. IR has used harmony in almost all his compositions for the most obvious reason that he prefers to use western orchestration methods.
Good examples of great harmonic compositions are: Annakkilli's songs. IR began then itself.
ARR's has not given sufficient evidence of his talents in orchestration. If one depends to a large extent on a organ alone, then there is no need for harmony!
So, Srfikanth here I disagree with you about ARR's capabilities. ARR is lucky, because jingles are catchy and do not need harmony!
- From: vijay (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Mon Jun 15 00:15:42 EDT 1998
what i meant about 'lighting up' was that the IR vs ARR topic makes every one participate actively.
I said this in a lighter sense.also these arguments, i feel, bring about the best points from everyone.for example look at srikanth,he is bringing out some new points about ARR. srinath or myself would come back with some more sooner or later.so this is what i meant.
but everything has a limit and i agree with u that all topics should not end up as ARR vs IR fights.
- From: vijay (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Mon Jun 15 00:32:02 EDT 1998
this is for junior.others pl.ignore this and read the next posting unless otherwise u are really interested :
Mr.Junior,first tone down your message by using lowercase letters lest u get the attention of ravi.Take this as a good suggestion from an experienced poster.
as for your hit/flop ratios first of all IR does not have 2000 films,his current tally would be about 850+.
An artist's talent should not be judged by the no. of awards.if so,then sivaji ganesn becomes one of the poorest actors in the country!as for ARR's music making film hits i can give counless examples of IR which iam not goint to.just to remind u that IR's music alone had resurrected the careers of the likes of mohan,ramaraajan etc.also many of kamal's and rajini's masala dabba films in the early eighties have been made popular due to his music.directors like manirathnam and K.Viswanaaath's films have been made classics due to the effort of IR.(iam not saying that the director's conribution is not there).
also just because a movie is a flop does not mean that IR has not scored good music in that film at all.
and to end all this IR, 6 years into his career that is in 1982 had 40 +plus films and much more to give.
whereas rahman six years into his career in 1998, has just less than 5 films in his hand with his music already looking stale ,directors running away from him and with his career threatening to crumble.
BOTTOMLINE: ARR may be great ,but IR is the greatest.
- From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net)
on: Mon Jun 15 02:15:57 EDT 1998
I generally try to keep out of these fights. Just wanted to post a response to Srikanth's claim that Raja does not use harmony whereas ARR does.
Honestly I am surprised by this. There are countless songs in which there are great interludes which have harmony. I havent heard any in ARR's music. In fact even in a mega flop movie of Vijay (Rajavin Manasile) there is one song which features Vijay also. Hear the chorus in that song. That is very harmonious. Similarly I remember a Malaysia song from "En Uyir Thoyan" which has a great choral harmony. Last but not the least "Ennulle" from Valli. No percussion instruments but what a beat!!Blows your mind off. In this song, instruments enter at no regular intervals and vanish. This sort of thing is supposed to be called "Polypony". I have heard it in a few of IR songs only. So I think the claim that IR doesnt use harmony is misplaced. I think IR has tried many experimentations in his music. I not listing them down because I dont want to get caught in the crossfire. Maybe someday we can start a thread detailing the innovations done by all TFM MDs starting from G Ramanathan.
Regarding getting North Indians to sing in TFM, what did we do to deserve Udit Narayan?
- From: Srikanth (@ 70.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net)
on: Mon Jun 15 09:05:26 EDT 1998
By Harmony I meant Vocal Harmonies,
AR songs have more vocal harmonies...
I agree the fact Raja as many string harmony composed. But when it comes to voice harmony - Except for few songs - (I take back my words "never" )IR has not used much of Harmony for Vocals, (the chorus voice he uses is really horrible. Shruthi losses in lot of places.)
What are the answeres to other points...?
"Regarding getting North Indians to sing in TFM, what did we do to deserve Udit Narayan? " - This is what I call Twisting the actual essence.
We are talking about Udit's skills here.
He is good singer - He has a language problem , he has surely imporved in Kasu mela in KK.
Knock Knock - it there any true AR fans around !
(I getting fed up with this fight as I have no support - Mind it I will close it down - I also respect Raja for his score )
- From: Srinath (@ socks13d.raleigh.ibm.com)
on: Mon Jun 15 09:12:43 EDT 1998
Gokul, Nithin, Vijay and Suresh: Thanks for the help :-) Trying to propound IR's greatness is apparently a crime these days ! And pretty unrewarding, considering the fact that we have to listen to people like Junior. "What did we do to deserve Udit Narayan?" had me in splits, Suresh :-))). Indeed 'different' does not always mean 'good' ! Finally I remembered that Muthu song (?) - 'Kuluvalile'. He ! He ! Ideal song for someone like UN.
Udhaya: I have been trying my best to keep this discussion related to the topic. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) it is not possible to keep all statements directly related to the topic. Issues like theory of music and the meaning of music are essential for this discussion. Also, I am not trying to turn this into an explicit IR Vs ARR discussion. In fact, I have also been arguing that IR is greater than MSV. Only when somebody tries to deny IR the mantle of greatest do I come up with arguments as to why IR is indeed the greatest (as the topic asks). When Srikanth says that ARR is better than IR, I understand that he is claiming that IR is not the greatest because someone else is greater. Then I come up with my own reasons trying to explain why IR is better than ARR (amongst other MDs) and therefore he is the greatest.
Srikanth: Eradication of Tabla from TFM is not something to be proud of. I can interpret it differently - namely, ARR does not know how to use the Tabla. And again, all your other points only indicate that ARR's PR & Marketing is wonderful. Also you repeatedly sing praises of his Sound Engineering skill, which I admit is exceptional. Where harmony is concerned, as my gurunathars have pointed out, you are absolutely mistaken. Perhaps, you could open a separate topic explaining exactly how ARR creates his music. To TFM fans like me, it might provide an insight into ARR's creative genius. Even IR fans will admit that ARR is a creative genius. But in no way is he a musical genius - from what we know of ARR until now. Maybe you will be able to give us a description of what exactly makes ARR a genius. I, for one would be very interested in knowing the different techniques and recording paraphernalia that ARR uses in his recordings. Also, I am very sure that there are many interesting anecdotes involved in ARR's recording sessions that you may be aware of. You can bring a greater understanding of ARR and his music by giving us an insight into his world. Where his music is concerned - I am sorry, there can be no question that IR is better.
- From: srikanth (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Mon Jun 15 11:10:41 EDT 1998
Hi Srinath ,
A long posting, I agree with you to an extent.
But AR was able to push IR to the back seat,
in a very very short span of time.
In the past my evening roadside discussion or discussions during a break in a recording has been about Raja and his creativity only - we (my friends) were 200% sure there is no person to replace Raja in TFM,
but after the realase of Roja and gentle man, Raja was stopped !,
this also looks like this happend overnight.
You cannot move the music moutain Raja with just luck or basic musical knowledge.
ARR has stuff belive in it and hear his scores with a open mind. Dont compare with Raja at once, take it as something which is new...
I do it, I tell you I am a greator fan of Raja than you,
- From: Srinath (@ socks14d.raleigh.ibm.com)
on: Mon Jun 15 12:07:13 EDT 1998
Srikanth:If I keep my mind 'too open' I might have to relinquish the ability to differentiate between good and bad. If you are under the impression that whenever I hear ARR songs, I close my ears and run away, then I must say, you are sadly mistaken. But then again, there are songs which literally drive me away - like 'Senthamizh naatu thamizhachichye', 'Katherikka, Gundu Katherikka', 'Petta Rap', 'Uyire', 'Humma', 'Kuluvalile', 'Oruvan Oruvan Mudalali' and wonder of wonders 'Chinna, Chinna Aasai' (sounds like a nursery rhyme. I can sing 'Baa, Baa, Black Sheep' to the same tune) etc.,. As much as I try, I cannot bring myself to appreciate these songs. They are outright bad. On the other hand, I do listen to songs like 'Pudhu Vellai Mazhai', 'July Maatham Vandaal', 'Vennilave', etc with interest. But I have a set of standards for good music. To me good music must be more than just a catchy tune. If this is what you want me to lose by keping an open mind, I am sorry, I have to refuse. Even the good songs of ARR are only catchy. I find no challenge in them. They do not stimulate me in any way.
Srikanth, good music is not a commercial rivalry. Good music is not that which is only successful. Good music goes beyond overthrowing IR. Recognizing good music also goes beyond being a fan(atic) of some MD. I am a fan of music. The BEST source, IMO, of music is IR. That is all that I am saying. ARR is a relatively poorer source of Music. Just go through your last posting again and you will see that you are asking me to appreciate ARR because he 'overthrew' IR. Is that why one should appreciate an MD ? Maybe you are indeed a greater fan of IR than I am. But let me tell you, I am the greater fan of his music. And that I prove by not letting others' commercial exploits cloud my judgement of his music. I sincerely feel that you are influenced by ARR's commercial success.
One more question - Have you played for any MD ? I have played in only one recording for a Sun TV serial that was scrapped. I believe the songs were later used in some devotional cassettes with different lyrics :-))))
And have you had the opportunity of playing for IR, atleast on stage ? Unfortunately, I was never that good :-(
You have added some new reasons as to why ARR is better -
1. Better Sound Engineering/Recording
2. More daring (new singers, new sounds)
and now -
3. New Music
4. Someone who overthrew IR
I am still waiting for something concerned with music :-)))
(Don't mind my barbs, they are aimed at provoking an interesting reply from you :-)).
- From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net)
on: Tue Jun 16 19:31:01 EDT 1998
There is a tremendous-great- men-talk- alike type-of-thing in our responses here in TFM. I think this is the beginning of MAD, or Mutually Alike Discoveries!
Look at the amazing statement from you. Chinna, Chinna Asai sounds like Baaaaa, Baaaaaa Black Sheep.... wait a little wee bit here... the rhyming actually happens at 'yes saaar, yes saaar, three bagsu pull!
This is one reason why I did not appreciate Roja songs as I felt Roja's songs were so naive and immature. And, this happened just at India' transition from regional AIR to the Satellite TV mode and everyone was looking in to join in a chorus of nursery rhymes. Chinna, Chinna Aasai tells it all!!!!
Srinath, please continue your good work of 'amazing discoveries so basic and fundamental to sustain the intelligent appreciation of good and mature music!'
- From: Ramesh Kumar (@ zmapxy05.zma.compaq.com)
on: Tue Mar 14 05:59:20 EST 2000
Music is undefinable so can not be evaluated using some formula and statics.
Grading the MD again depends many undefinable factors like,
a) maturity of the person
b) range of knowledge
Each person will have his favourite MD, it is not prudent to generalize once opinion and instead it should be taken as his/her "PERSONAL OPINION".
In a vast country like India, where music and film are so tightly coupled and where there are many MDs working in many languages, it's really foolish say some X is the number 1.
In my personal opinion my greatest is Shankar-Jaikishan.
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